INTRODUCTION:
What does it mean to do IR for something the market doesn't fully understand yet?
That question is the foundation of Samir Jain’s entire practice. As an advisor working with companies in Bitcoin, crypto, and AI infrastructure, Samir operates where investor misconception is greatest, where the audience is most fragmented, and where the stakes of getting the story right are the highest.
As an institutional buy-side investor and portfolio manager, Samir knows what investors and analysts are looking for in a company story.
In this episode, Samir explains how to establish credibility around an asset class the market is still learning, why retail investors in the Bitcoin world are five years ahead of where every other sector is headed, and what AI will, and won't, replace in the investor relations function.
Let's get into it.
Bitcoin vs Crypto Myths
Mark Fasken: So Samir, today we're gonna be talking about sort of two sectors — a little bit of emerging tech, a little bit of finance, a little bit of Bitcoin and crypto — so we're gonna cover a lot. I wanted to start off with a question about Bitcoin, because that's an area that you have a lot of knowledge.
You mentioned to us on our prep call that Bitcoin is more widely held than gold, however, investor understanding is still pretty low. What's the biggest misconception you've run into around Bitcoin and crypto, and how do you tackle it?
Samir Jain: Yeah. So thank you so much for having me. I would say the biggest misconception that I've come across is that Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are the same thing, and I would even expand that to sort of say Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, meme stocks — basically that anything that isn't a traditional asset you can put in the same bucket — and that's not the case.
The shocking thing, I think, for a lot of — let's say regular people who aren't involved in this sector — is that Bitcoiners are a lot more suspicious about other cryptocurrencies than I would say even the regular public. They align, you know, on most things. They don't see the use case. They think a lot of this stuff is scammy. You know, they point to how almost all of them go to zero. So there really isn't a gap, you know, in perception. I think it very much circles on Bitcoin itself. And there, you know, the gap is — I think there's this public perception of, you know, why would I ever use Bitcoin to buy a loaf of bread or, you know, transact with — and it's a bit of a straw man on the other side.
Bitcoiners don't feel like that is the reason you buy Bitcoin. They a hundred percent align on that. They just view it as a pure store of value. So there is actually, you know, to your fundamental question, very little daylight in terms of actually where these people are coming in. It's just the perception of what you think the other side thinks.
Making Bitcoin Investable
Mark Fasken: And so in this role, though, you're educating people on cryptocurrencies. You're also sort of bridging the gap between traditional finance — somebody who holds gold or invests in bonds — and, you know, what is an emerging technology and sort of an emerging financial instrument. How do you help your Bitcoin clients?
Those companies who have gone public and are operating businesses based off of cryptocurrencies — how do you help them gain credibility with institutional investors?
Samir Jain: Yeah, so definitely, you know, to the first question, it's clarifying, you know, all these different perceptions around what Bitcoin is, what the use case is, who Bitcoiners are. So that, I would say, brings you, you know, halfway to where you need to be. The other half is establishing Bitcoin for what it is in terms of an asset class. So, to your point, this idea that it's not some fringe asset owned by people deep in the internet or the dark web — that, again, it's very widely owned. You know, I think the last number I saw was something like 60 million people. So this idea that there's like a ton of people that own this thing, and it's not on the fringes, and it's actually mainstream. Often, you know, Bitcoin — the price has dropped a little recently — but we often hear about it being a $2 trillion asset.
So if you actually think of that, you know, in perspectives away from just fiat currency, that is a real asset. That is something that's not on the fringes. And again, if you extrapolate the kind of growth rate, the gap between it and gold — which is I think something like a $20 trillion asset — you don't have to extrapolate very long before you start seeing convergence, and particularly around other commodities, there's already been that convergence. The second thing, in terms of bridging that gap, is sort of anticipating — which is really what a successful investor should do — because, as we all know, an asset price really is based on the future values of wherever it's going. So if you look at legislation, you look at institutional adoption, and this isn't just centered around the Trump administration or just ETFs.
If you actually look at the types of products that are being built into traditional mainstream finance, and you start looking at what's happening even outside of, you know, again, the Trump administration, and just legislation around things like the Genius Act, it sort of paves the road for much, much wider adoption.
And then the last thing is just — and again, you know, people may know this, but they don't always think of Bitcoin in these terms — just really highlighting the foundational arc of establishing any asset class. There's a path, right? It has to sort of establish itself, and it has to kind of get institutionalized. Then it gets adopted both within institutions and on mainstream. And if you overlay Bitcoin's lifespan and how it's sort of tracking, it actually doesn't look much different than any other asset class. You just happen to be looking at an asset that's just earlier in its life right now.
Mark Fasken: I think that that idea — I think a lot of IROs spend a lot of time thinking about what are some of the objections or questions that I might get, you know, how do I understand some of the challenges that an investor may have with my company or with my sector — it seems like you've done a lot of that, right?
Like you've thought about what are some of the objections that might come up, what is like real hard data that I can point to, what are examples that I can point to. I mean, how do you go about ideating on some of the questions that might come up or concerns that investors might have? Is that just straight from conversations that you're having with investors every day? Is that from speaking with the sell side? I mean, I know that you come from sort of a bit of a buy-side analyst background. I mean, what are some of the sources that you go to to sort of come up with some of these questions and objections that you might run into?
Samir Jain: Yeah, I think there's two things. One, I occupy a unique position being in this role where, you know, whereas before I was a sell-side analyst, I was an institutional investor for almost 20 years. So in that sense, I have actually sat in that seat of who sort of the main constituents are. But I don't think that that stops anybody else from sort of employing what I think is just a good strategic view, which is just like anything — you reverse engineer what it is you want to accomplish. So put yourself in the position of the investor, the research analyst, and really try to think about what they're solving for. So if it's a research analyst, they're really trying to think about the scalability of this company.
They're trying to think about how institutional investors are gonna react to this as they become the bridge between the company and the institutional investor — how clear is the story, how can they sort of rebuff maybe some of these preconceptions, et cetera. So it's arming them with that information.
And if it's the institutional investor — look, I mean, for most investors, you try to solve for volatility on a portfolio basis. You definitely don't want volatility on an individual basis, whether that's like an equity or an asset or whatever builds up your portfolio. So it's really trying to hone the message around that.
Which, if you really distill all the stuff we talked about — does anyone really care about asset class A versus asset class B or C? No, they are just really worried about the implicit volatility in something and, even in kind of more simpler terms, just the unknowns around something. So it's really shaping this — whether it's the story, the company — around that to create a path to ownability around what you're sort of saying, to really tamp down this idea of risk and volatility. And if you think in those terms, you can naturally backfill.
Mark Fasken: And I think that's why we thought that this would be an interesting episode, and why people might think, like, why are we talking about Bitcoin and crypto? And I think the reason is — it is, to your point, still in its early days, or sort of in its infancy of understanding. And so when you think about — there are many companies who are building novel technology, or you think about in the pharma space, like creating a novel drug, or, you know, there are many companies that are in growth mode and trying to help investors understand who they are — I think the approach that you've taken and your experience in helping investors understand Bitcoin and crypto, and helping them understand what's the path to ownability, helping them understand, you know, what are some comps that we can look at to help you understand what might this look like in the long run, are all sort of interesting ways that IROs can think about how do I simplify my story down and build — you know, it's really a strong investment thesis that I can then sort of pitch to a prospective investor. Absolutely.
Retail IR Playbook
In many sectors, though, you know, IR is built around institutional investors. I mean, there's so much conversation about institutional — I would say in recent years, there's much more conversation around retail and how retail is impacting companies. A lot of that is probably more the result of, you know, meme stocks and some of the things that are happening there. But I think you've really got a front-row seat to that, because as you think about crypto and Bitcoin, you've sort of described it as like the complete opposite — that, you know, retail are the primary buyers of these securities and these financial instruments.
So how does that change the way that you think about IR and, like, what have you learned about retail engagement overall?
Samir Jain: Yeah, and I really appreciate how you frame that question, because I do think this is the tip of the spear. So it's so tilted right now. I mean, if you look at Bitcoin, you look at any public company and you look at the cap stack, the amount of retail ownership — in many cases it's inverted compared to like traditional equities at Procter & Gamble or something like that.
Even for the very large companies, they over-index so much in terms of retail. But I really think that is where we're headed, right? I think you are looking at an industry that's, at least in this context, five years into the future. So I think it's very, very important for anybody — I don't care what sector you're involved in — to focus on here and look at the playbook, because it's something you're gonna have to deploy in your industry.
And I mean, it's just an outgrowth — you know, technology democratizing how technology democratizes an industry. So in this case, financing, people are starting to feel empowered and they're taking control of their money, and they're investing in a more direct way. And they're not using offshore or closed structures to do that anymore, which means you have to speak directly to the people.
So Bitcoin is very much, again, tip of the spear on this. So from our perspective in terms of how we interact with that and how we do it, we pay a lot of attention to these spaces. So that doesn't mean we're indifferent to institutional channels, research analysts, traditional institutional investors, whether that's long-only mutual funds or hedge funds, et cetera.
But it also means being native to where the energy is and where the people are. So if you think of things like Reddit, X, podcasts — you know, just media at large — that means having a presence there. That means understanding how information is exchanged there. It means speaking to people in ways that they're familiar with.
If you're gonna thumb your nose and say, well, you know, X, Y, Z, some fluffy puppy account on Twitter is just silly and I'm just gonna stop there — you do it at your own peril. You know, that person can have over a million followers and have an outsized impact on what happens to whatever stock or sub-sector that they're focused on.
And what I will tell you — I've seen in Bitcoin, and again, I'm certain it's gonna happen in other industries — is that same realization of democratization of finance, it's happening on the institutional side too. So I've seen many institutions, many reputable institutions — you'd be surprised if I named some of these people — not skip the traditional mechanism of going to X, Y, Z analyst at X, Y, Z broker, but incorporating at least an equal measure on X, on podcasts, et cetera, to listen to Fluffy Puppy 45 on X, and see what they have to say. Because often these people will devote tens of hours every day on one particular stock and just do exhaustive real research that honestly just isn't being replicated on Wall Street. So, yeah, it's just very, very important. And the last thing I'll just say — I mean, this is also, I think, just a proxy of evolution and change, which, I think we could probably get into later as we start talking about AI and stuff.
But just, if you were really to step back and see the forest through the trees, we're at a point of rapid change right now. So you have to be nimble and flexible, and you can't just take a certain playbook and deploy it over everything you do.
Mark Fasken: Those are great answers. And I love the Fluffy Puppy — I feel like you've actually run into a Fluffy Puppy character at some point. And, you know, you talk about the playbook, and there's a couple of things that you're talking about — like you've gotta be sort of where the audience is, and so that's like Reddit and that's X and, you know, some of these social media venues, and like you said, being on a podcast. And I mean, there's plenty now of sort of these retail-focused online interviews, and there's an endless amount of places where you could go.
And I think that's — as you can imagine — also a challenge for IR teams, because, you know, many of them are not that large. They don't have a ton of extra bandwidth where they can go and spend time on Reddit. So I guess my question would be — just to use one example — like, let's say I'm an IRO and I recognize that retail is, you know, a significant part of our ownership, and so I'm trying to figure out, you know, how do I go and engage on Reddit? Like, where do I start? What does that actually look like for some of your clients on a daily basis? Like, how do they find out where they should even be on Reddit? How do they figure out who are the people that actually matter? And then what do they actually even do? Like, how do you participate in the conversation in a meaningful way?
Samir Jain: Yeah. You just have to get your hands dirty. That's the short answer. I wouldn't wanna give the impression that it's not truly the wild, wild west, right?
You're on Twitter and if you put a dollar-sign ticker, things are organized, right? And it's organized in the same way on Reddit. You could even go on Google and do little searches, you know, and StockTwits is another one. Things are very organized, so it doesn't actually take that much effort to find out who is more vocal and influential and followed when it comes to your equity, let's call it right now. So you just have to organize yourself there so you gather the information, the players — just like you would, you know, you pull up your 13F apps and you know who your big institutional holders are, and you pay a little bit more attention to people that own more of your stock, right?
So you do the exact same process here, you just do it in a bit more unconventional way. And then the second part of that question — you just have to engage with these people, right? So consume what it is that they're putting out there. That's important. So know their perspective as much as you can, but then engage with them. Find out what they're saying, what they deem is important, where the holes are.
And this also means engaging with the people that aren't in alignment with you, which is actually something I was a little surprised at too. I kind of felt like that's also something that's not fully expunged, even just in terms of like traditionally doing this job. There's still, I think, that perception of, well, don't talk to a hedge fund — don't, they may short your stock.
And to me, all of these things just seem to be in the same bucket, which is just being willfully ignorant. Like, why would you not want more information? You talk to people every day in every part of your life that you don't agree with, but why would you not follow the same principles around your job, right?
So you absolutely get in there, you engage with these folks, you get the information. And, to the extent if they're influential enough, yeah, include them. Like, why can't they show up at the analyst day? Why can't they be allowed on an investor call? We even have some of these people joining in on the Q&A. Or you do a version of an earnings call or something on these platforms as well, so they can engage as well. You just have to bring them into the tent.
Mark Fasken: And so just to, almost to summarize that — and I think that's great advice — like, go back to a point you made earlier, which is, you know, you just treat some of these people in the same way that you had treated a top holder.
So like, if you're gonna go and meet with a — I don't know, insert name of large buy-sider, Fidelity or whatever — you're gonna go and spend some time with them talking to 'em about your story, answering their questions. You do the same thing with Fluffy Puppy. Fluffy Puppy has a million followers. You might reach out and just say like, I wanted to introduce myself, I'm the head of IR here, and, you know, if you ever have any questions or you want to connect, or you know, I noticed that you posted this thing and maybe I have a little bit of a different view, I'd love to talk about it with you. You just sort of engage with 'em in that same fashion.
Samir Jain: Absolutely. You just don't put this arbitrary demarcation of institutional, retail, or should talk to this person, shouldn't talk to some people.
Everyone should, in theory, be someone you would talk to. Now, I know time is a limiting factor and resources are limiting factors, so, yet, you can't get to everybody — but to extricate a certain group of people that are influential to your story, whether it's direct stockholders or influencers — again, I just think that's kind of malpractice. Like, you just shouldn't do that. And you might have been able to do that five years ago, and maybe you can get away with doing that now — I can assure you, as we look into the future, that's gonna catch up with you. This is a vibrant, growing, real community, and it's just naive to pretend that they're not there.
Mark Fasken: Absolutely. Okay, cool.
AI Meets Crypto Commerce
A little bit of a pivot from one emerging technology to another very fast-emerging technology, which is AI. You work with a lot of companies in the crypto space. You also are working with companies in the AI infrastructure space. There's a bit of an overlap between the two, and I'd love to hear about sort of why those two technologies are a focus for you and sort of how you see them overlapping.
Samir Jain: Yeah, so the short answer is they basically — again, both are industries that are making themselves known in the present, but really are a window into the future, right? So that is the short answer of how they both connect.
And more specifically, if you think about what we're seeing with AI, right? So we've started with LLMs. Now we're potentially moving to AGI, agent work, et cetera. The natural question that everyone should be asking — most smart people are — is, okay, how does this work? My agent is talking to your agent is talking to this agent — like, at the end of the day, this is still capitalism. This is still an economy. So there has to be an exchange of currency, of monetary terms, et cetera, otherwise it just doesn't make sense. And if you think about what the bridge is to that, at least in my eyes — I mean, this is where crypto becomes invaluable. Like, how else do you conduct commerce across all these sorts of agents and in this AGI world? So I think that is where you're gonna have a direct connection between AGI and, whether it's — let's just call it crypto or Bitcoin or something like that. So that's like where they directly connect.
But in terms of like how they connect right now — because we're not quite there — these are both kind of forward technologies. Now they're a little bit different because obviously AI is just wholly accepted and loved — well, not loved, but I mean, it's accepted. There are some questions about whether it's gonna be good or bad or whatever, but nobody really questions the validity of what it is and how important it's gonna be. Again, on the crypto side, you are fighting a lot more misconception, you know, potentially bad press around it. So, as we are dealing with both of these industries — dealing with crypto is much more labor-intensive because you still have to kind of make that case. AI is sort of selling itself, and someone could actually make the case that there's just too much euphoria around it. So in that sense, very different.
Mark Fasken: Right. But as it relates to AI — I mean, so many companies are now launching AI-related products, right? I mean, I'm sure many people kind of found the Allbirds story last week where they shut down shoe production and started an AI infrastructure business. But, you know, I mean, there are many companies that are doing these very sort of AI offerings — whether it's a brand-new product or a layer on top of something that already existed — what are some of the things that those companies should be thinking about as they think about sort of messaging and adoption and everything? And these are kind of learnings that are coming from, you know, your work in crypto.
Samir Jain: Yeah, so I would say you're still in a little bit of a honeymoon stage right now, where — your pure Allbirds point — like, stock goes bananas, they just mentioned AI, whatever.
I think in very short order, it's gonna follow the path of probably — you know, if I were to think of an analogy — maybe something like the internet, where it was just the idea, it was like a land grab, right? Like, put your flag down, you own a parcel of this land in this virtual new world. I don't care, I just need you to acquire a footing here. It very quickly evolved into, well, okay, you're here, but I'm an investor — what is the ROI? Like, at the end of the day, that is what I'm solving for. So how does this make money, and what timeframe, et cetera. I think that is really what a lot of these companies or products have to start shaping the story around.
I think we're gonna get the biggest test case around this when OpenAI and Anthropic go public later this year, and we're already starting to see under the hood a little bit around the financials — what are people willing to pay? But for anybody, as you start thinking about this, I think you have to have a real story and a real case around how you can make money around your product. And, you know, to deconstruct that — it's all the usual things. How scalable is this idea? How unique is it? Is it only relevant in contemporary terms because, hey, like there is no version of this — or is there actually some value in some persistent way?
Because if it's the former, it's gonna get replaced, and it's gonna be done by somebody better. And no one — Wall Street isn't dumb — like, they're gonna basically be like, there's no kind of terminal value associated with this, so I'm not gonna pay for this. So yeah, there's gonna have to be this — again, I'll use the term convergence — between the technologist side of it and then the financial side of it, and making the case in numbers. That's what we encourage any company we work with to do, and I would encourage anybody else to do that too.
AI Proofing the IRO Role
Mark Fasken: That's awesome. And, you know, I alluded to this earlier — you come from a background on the buy side as an investor, you then sort of went into IR, you know, now you're still in the IR space and doing sort of more advisory work. What does an IRO need to understand to be effective in a sector that is technical, that is emerging — I mean, or really any sector — like, what do you think is the ultimate skill for an IRO to be successful in sort of this fast-moving environment?
Samir Jain: So I would say there are two things.
So on a very high level, I would again emphasize what I was speaking about earlier in terms of like reverse engineering and putting yourself in the constituents' shoes, right? So the most important thing I can tell you — when I used to manage a fund, and even to some extent when I was a research analyst — is my ROI. But not ROI on capital; even as a hedge fund manager, it wasn't really about the capital. It was time. There's an infinite amount of things I could be doing or an infinite amount of companies I could be looking at. So I really needed to be efficient with my time. I could actually risk the capital a little bit, but I couldn't risk the time, because that is very much fixed. So I think for an IRO, it's having that in the back of their mind and realizing that, look, if I'm basically gonna meet with said person — research analyst, investor, whoever it is — what am I bringing to the table, right?
So if I'm sitting there and the majority of what I'm gonna share or talk about is stuff that's already in a press release, or if it's just versions of, I'll direct this to somebody else, or something that just isn't a good use of somebody else's time, you know — that is not gonna be something that the other party's gonna be happy with, or they're gonna seek further conversations with you on the matter in the future. So think in those terms.
If you feel like, well, I don't have that knowledge because this kicks back to the CFO or the CEO or the COO — become knowledgeable on that stuff, right? Like, don't think of yourself as a proxy for what someone else says. Think of yourself as a peer. Put yourself in those meetings. Put yourself in those rooms and demand that you're included in this information. And the simple case, again, it works both externally and internally.
Like, if you think about high-level executives at a company speaking to 50 funds or analysts saying the same thing over and over again — isn't a good use of their time, right? They have to be — their ROI is the same thing on their time. So that's the pitch: look, you don't need to be speaking with all these people. It's very inefficient. I should be doing that. That's in my job. Empower me with the right information, the technical information, the quantitative information, and let me be a proper sort of proxy to you, and just cut you out of this process. Both sides of the party are important, but yeah, I think that's incredibly, incredibly important.
Particularly — I'll just say this last thing — if you think about the impact again of AI and stuff like that, that's just gonna — that importance is just gonna shoot up. It's important now, but a year from now, two years from now, it's really gonna shoot up. So you really have to anchor yourself in that information now.
Mark Fasken: Well, that's a great segue because you're talking about sort of reverse engineering, thinking about, you know, the story and communication, and I think leveling up as an IRO and really challenging yourself to be the expert and to be the go-to, and not to just be the proxy but to actually be like a trusted advisor to investors and to the street in general.
There's been a lot of conversation — I think at every IR-related event I go to there are, you know, multiple panels and multiple conversations and presentations around AI and how it is being used in IR and how it's going to impact IR. I mean, I'd love from your view, as somebody who is sort of thinking about AI and like really in the weeds on it, and I'm sure using it quite, quite frequently — how do you think AI is gonna affect IR, and like, where do you think there are productivity gains to be had?
Samir Jain: Yeah. No, I think it's gonna impact it tremendously. I think we're seeing across every other industry — particularly white-collar industries — it's coming, right? It's gonna upend everything. And again, this is sort of a white-collar role. It's absolutely gonna impact you over here. And I think to steel yourself against that and to cement your position in, you have to start again thinking about it in terms of the other side of it.
So think about what it is that AI is proficient in. What can it replicate? And in my mind, that means like procedural work, that means more rote work. So if I am an IRO — stuff like putting together materials of any sort, whether it's earnings scripts or press releases or decks, even stuff like outreach — all of these things can today be replaced by AI. And the only gap right now is just adoption. But adoption always happens, right? So if it's just more efficient, and it is more efficient in terms of what it produces, and it's also efficient from a capital perspective — of course it's gonna happen.
So you have to segment that side of your job and say, okay, that part is going to be replaced. The other side, though, is the kind of creative side, the proprietary side — the thing that isn't just pulling from what's out in the ether or that's rote, et cetera, that's unique to this company or what your role is. So that's again — that's synthesizing information, that's being the master of information that's fluid and live, that's having insights, that's being creative, that's being an originator. And again, in real time.
Back to the previous conversation we were having — that means, again, fundamentally rethinking your role, right? Your role has to be someone who is an owner of information that's proprietary and unique, just like a CEO, CFO, any executive. And you have to be shoulder to shoulder with these people at your company. You have to be someone who knows this information. You should be someone who has an opinion on this information.
And again, maybe that means expanding the remit, right? When I was an IRO of a public company before this, I also did capital markets work for them. I was the treasurer, I worked through different bank facilities, et cetera. So these are opportunities that are probably, in one shape or another, available to a lot of people. So try to expand the remit of what you're doing, and that gets you closer to the actual information so that you can be an owner of that. That stuff doesn't exist out there, so it can't necessarily be replicated by AI.
And I think if you do that, AI can be a fantastic tool. It can take a lot of the mundane stuff and remove it off your plate, and you can spend more of your time on the relationships and the thoughtful stuff, which truly adds more value to this role.
Mark Fasken: That's interesting. I was gonna ask you that question, which is — I've heard an argument on some of these panels that people have said almost exactly that, and it seems like you're in agreement that, you know, it's not necessarily gonna replace your job, it's gonna change your job, and it's gonna take away a lot of that sort of rote, you know, content creation and script writing, everything — but that the goal then is really to focus on the relationships, to focus on being that trusted advisor, to really having your finger on the pulse of what the street thinks about your company. And if you're doing that, then you know, you're quote-unquote probably safe.
Samir Jain: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And there's — look, that's a thing. I mean, you can have a different perspective — we all do — on like what exactly AGI means. But at least as of now, as far as I've seen it, I don't see any hard evidence that there's true creativity there. There's like versions of — that's a gray area — but still, I think the ability to be there and be this kind of nexus of information and connect A to Z and do these things that aren't existing out there — there's incredible value to that.
And there's — I think this is — if you're an optimist, which I am, I think there's absolutely — this allows you to really upgrade your job, right? So it allows you to take some of that mundane stuff, put it aside, create this capacity. Now it's up to you, though — use that capacity to create value wherever you are. And you could come out of this doing threefold what you did before, be more challenged because you're not doing these mundane things anymore. This can really be a great, great opportunity, but it's gonna require initiative and, again, creativity to imagine what it is that you could or should be doing.
I think, again, because all of this stuff is brand new, you can't just fall into a template — the template doesn't exist. You have to write the template. So everyone has to sit down, take more agency in their career, and say, okay, this is what I could be doing, I should be doing — make the pitch. And then you could have a fantastic career on the back of it, but it's no doubt gonna be very different than the career you have right now.
Mark Fasken: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that is a very, very, very positive view of it and something to aspire to. And so, Samir, really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you for everything.
Samir Jain: Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure.
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