Fasken
Hi Leah, thanks so much for joining us today, I wanted to start off with a little bit of background on Cybin. So for those of the listeners who may not have heard of Cybin before, what does Cybin do? What are some of the problems that your company solves?
Gibson
Um, thanks, Mark. And thanks for having me today. So Cybin, we are a clinical stage biopharmaceutical company, we are working on progressing psychedelics into therapeutics, so taking psychedelic based treatments, in connection with integration therapy and using them for a myriad of different mental health conditions, including major depressive disorder, alcohol use disorder, and also anxiety disorders, as well.
Fasken
And you come from a more traditional background in biotech, we talked a little bit about that before, what drew you to psychedelics?
Gibson
So I think it really was similar to pretty much everyone I talked to that is in this industry, particularly the culture that we built at Cybin too, everyone knows someone, some a loved one, a friend, a neighbor, or themselves that have been impacted by some type of mental health condition. I personally have suffered from depression anxiety over the course of my lifetime. And so this was something that really drew me in because it was an opportunity to change how we that have been on SSRIs and other antidepressant medications can be treated. Typically up to now, you see your psychologist or even your general practitioner, you get assessed, they put you on an SSRI, sometimes there's follow up, sometimes there isn't. But the majority of these SSRIs, that start, that are impactful, or that actually work for people is really, really limited. And sometimes it can take years for someone to find the right combination. And that was my case, it took me a number of tries with different medications to find what would work for me. And at that point, you're kind of at your wit's end. And so there needs to be a change in that. And the side effects that some of these treatments in these medicines can cause it's also just, it's really disruptive to your life.
Funnily enough, my grandmother, who also suffered from depression and anxiety, back this was God two decades ago probably, had mentioned to me about the potential for psilocybin, which are magic mushrooms,
Fasken
Wow she’s ahead of the curve.
Gibson
Absolutely. I mean, this was 1993 to treat her depression, and she got a book about it, actually, from the library. And I was just shocked that I was having this conversation with my then 78 year old grandmother, she passed three years ago. And that was around the time that Cybin actually, I was introduced to Cybin. And so it was almost like a sign to become part of this or to become part of this industry, something that she had the wherewithal to know is going to be emerging at some point. So it's been an interesting ride to get here. Sure.
Fasken
Wow. That's an amazing story. That's so cool. And so, and today, we're talking about investor relations and emerging markets. This is very new to you. I mean, psychedelics have been around for a long time, but are obviously growing in popularity. But you know, for you going from sort of more traditional biotech coming into psychedelics, what have been the big differences?
Gibson
So, interestingly enough, in the majority of my IR career has been in biotech and like you said, more of the traditional biotech. But interestingly enough... I mean, at the end of the day, it's drug development. And so the model remains the same. It's its discovery phase, finding the right molecules, compounds, combinations, moving them into a strong protocol that then the regulatory agencies can get behind. Progressing them through drug development. Long phase three studies, and getting ready for launch and commercialization. So it's essentially the same model. But obviously, the difference here is this is an emerging industry in an emerging market that is, interestingly, very unknown. For many I think that because we see psychedelics as a more mainstream, there's Netflix documentaries, you can even get kids clothes at Target with little mushrooms on them now, I mean, it's definitely had, it's having a much stronger presence, but the understanding of what they are, what they do, and how they could revolutionize mental health is still fairly unknown. So it's a lot of educating. And it's not just educating patients or potential patients, it's educating physicians, it's educating institutions, like the hospitals that we hope that will be partnering with us at one point or another in trials or for treatment. It's certainly educating the media, it's educating investors, it's educating insurance agencies, and of course, the regulatory agencies as well. So that means that I have to be very well educated, because I am a spokesperson for what we are doing, not only for Cybin, but for the whole industry. So it's a lot of homework.
Fasken
Yeah, I can imagine. And so you find that you do a lot more educating of the investors that you're speaking to, as well, like more so than you would have in in previous roles?
Gibson
Yes, and the interesting part is, the conversation starts off a lot differently. We know, for biotech, especially most of the street, the institutional investors, and the analysts have some type of scientific background. So they're coming to the table a lot of times and a lot smarter than I am. And they've had time on the bench or they have, they were an MD. And so whether or not they have specialized in that specific disease area that you're working on, at least they understand the science. With this, I find the conversations, and we know, coming from IR it's a it's a speed dating type of model when you go to meetings and events and conferences. And so I would say the first 15-20 minutes of that 30 minute block that you have with an investor is really kind of talking about the landscape of psychedelics, and many times getting them up to speed, not only talking about the company itself, and so I often find that we need well more than the 30 minutes that were allotted to.
So yeah, I mean, I think I think people now are starting to pay more attention. And the the industry itself, initially had, you know, quite a surgence of public and private companies, almost too much where it was, was, it was probably scary for an investor to come in and have to kind of learn about all these companies, but we're starting to see that kind of consolidate and some of the more prominent companies emerge. So that makes the conversation a little bit easier. But nonetheless, you kind of have to kind of scan through the landscape and do a lot of right-setting some of the assumptions that investors make.
Fasken
Yeah, I feel like that that was one of the things that I was was thinking about, as we did some of our prep calls is like that idea of the education of being an advocate, you know, it's like, yes, you need to understand your company, but you need to also go out and talk about the benefits of these things, especially in an emerging market where it's like, a lot of times, investors have never, maybe invested in companies like this before, right? They want more time.
Gibson
It's scary, because like any traditional biotech, I mean, early stage is always risky. And so coming into a conversation with a potential investor, where we're still on the early side, there isn't a lot of clinical data, there's certainly a lot of empirical evidence, and certainly, you know, a slew of research, really, really strong research. But the clinical data is just starting to emerge. And so I can understand the apprehension from investors, particularly institutions.
One thing I always try to remind them, though, is that we do have so much in decades of information on psychedelics, we know that they're efficacious, right? There might be some user faults, but we know that they're efficacious. We know that they're safe. We know that it's nearly impossible to overdose on a psychedelic. We know that they're safer than I mean, if you look at if you look at charts, I mean, they're safer than caffeine, they're safer than nicotine. They're certainly safer than alcohol. So that kind of mitigates the risk a little bit. What we really are trying to find out now and another thing that I tried to remind investors to is just finding the right dosing, and then ministration of dose. It's kind of like the Goldilocks story. It's not like it's probably the same for everyone. But we need to find where that right that right ranges, and then I think will be in a really, really good smile.
Fasken
But so that all it all at the end of the day, though, still comes back to the idea of education, right? And so there's this longer road to the conversations, because it's going to lead with a lot of that upfront education, they gotta go home and do their own research, maybe more than then then some of the more traditional biotech. So other than that piece of it, what are some of the other maybe roadblocks or challenges that you would say are unique to emerging markets or doing being an IRO in an emerging market?
Gibson
I mean, I would certainly say that the audiences are more vast, right? I think that the retail investor has not only in this industry, but now has a much stronger voice than it did even pre COVID. And whether it is an outcome of COVID and the fact that everyone was at home and had a little bit more time to spend searching the internet, we now have outlets and platforms where people can go and buy and sell stock at their own accord and not necessarily have to go through a broker. There are platforms now like Reddit and Wall Street Bets that people can go and get a lot of really good information, substantive information and also have a voice. So that's one thing that I often like laugh at myself, because all the traditional investor relations that you've learned and been taught over the years just completely goes out the door. Because–
Fasken
It's not as many institutional roadshows or conferences that you're going to be going to.
Gibson
Extremely important. Still, I try to take our model and our plan internally. And also make sure that my leadership team understands that it has to be 50-50, we still have to be nurturing both sides. But it's a completely different way in which we communicate with them. Like you said, institutions, it's, it's pretty easy. You go, You're invited to a conference, thats hosted by a bank, or a bank will take you out on the road. They organize everything for you, they put together the list of investors, they put together the dinners, you just kind of have to get yourself there and show up. It's grueling. Don't get me wrong. Like I said, the speed dating part of the conversation is grueling. But you you can reach the audiences pretty easily.
On the retail side, you have to get really creative. It is a bit of social media interactions. It's a bit of other platform interactions, like Reddit and Wall Street Bets, or at least kind of having your ear to the pulse of what's going on there and understanding the questions and needs and concerns of those of those people. And then it's how do you get in front of these retail investors, I think individually, not talking necessarily about the family offices and high net worth groups. But individually, it might not be the most impactful monetary, or ownership in your stock. But collectively, they can actually, you know, take a huge piece of your stock and have a huge impact on your valuation. But I think that communicatively, and just the impact that they have with their voice is so much stronger in some ways than the institutions that we have relied mainly upon the sell side research, right. So that's usually how we get our information on the street side. But on the retail side, it's coming from all different places. And so you need to have your finger on the pulse on on everything. I mean, sometimes it can take three hours in the morning just to get up to speed on what had discussions that happen overnight, whether it's on Twitter or on LinkedIn, or some of the psychedelic platforms and chat rooms and message boards. And you need to know you need to be up and on top of all of that in order to have a good understanding of the environment and the landscape. So
Fasken
is that something that you do that you're doing circuits or daily or a few times a week that you're you're engaging or just reading?
Gibson
Yeah, it's like I said before, it's a lot of reading. It's a lot of homework, I would say I try to carve out my mornings, get the kids off on the bus buses and then try to take at least an hour or two in the morning to get up to speed on everything that had happened the night before. So going through not only the research reports, but also going online and looking at the different articles that have come out from all the different industry and trade media outlets, as well as academic studies that have been published, white papers that have been published, again, Reddit and some of the other message platforms. And yeah, it's time consuming. And then I probably do the same before I go to bed to be grudgingly my husband is always like “put your phone down, get off WallStreetBets”. Yeah, I think we're all, we’re all faulty of that at some point. But it kind of goes to show how quickly everything is changing and how information is out there.
Fasken
And so that's I feel like that's kind of on this, like, monitoring side of things, right. It's like, ingesting all that and understanding what's being said, and what's going on. Have you found any, any particular approaches that have been successful in engaging the retail audience? Cuz I feel like that's a big topic, right of like, how do we engage these people? How do we build relationships with them? You know, you hear about companies that do, like, sort of like, retail conference, like townhall type things, AMA's, with the CEO, like, is there anything particular that that you've done? That's worked?
Gibson
Yeah, I mean, I think we've done it all. And I think you kind of have to, because you're gonna reach different individuals in different ways. It's a little bit easier with the high net worth family offices, because they tend to have their own organized events, similar to what we see on the bank side. So, but you have to, you have to confirm their trust in order to participate in those. It's kind of, you know, you're getting let into the secret club. And you have to kind of use, like I said, you have to earn their trust for that. So we find that it's really helpful from a networking perspective. Certainly some of the open Twitter conversations and blog conversations, we've certainly tried that, I think that we personally, for 2023 will be working on trying to build a bigger presence on Twitter, I think Twitter is extremely useful. As you know, that's where everyone on the institutional side on the retail side now gets their information because they need it quick, and they need it fast. And they needed 140 words or however many, it is now.
Fasken
It’s unlimited or something I don't know.
Gibson
So, we kind of have to keep that cycle going, too. So it's definitely those are pieces of our plan that we integrate, and try to and try to deliver throughout the year. But we're we're very new company, we were established and in 2019, during the pandemic, we went public and on the Neo and then on the on the NYSE. And so we've created a very strong clinical stage company in a very short time, with limited resources. And during a pandemic, which has been amazing to see and amazing to be a part of as well.
Fasken
Awesome. Another kind of piece of this is not only is this in an emerging market, but it's also a pretty tightly regulated market, which I mean, that's something that you know, you are used to. But how does that impact your investor communications, shareholder engagement? Has it changed from how you would have done things in previous roles?
Gibson
No, I think so. From a messaging standpoint, because like any other biotech biopharma that's going through drug development, you kind of have to keep things close to the vest, you can't really give too much claim and too much promotion to the drug candidates that you're working on. So I wouldn't say that has changed so much. But if you think about just the process, in the regulatory landscape in and of itself for psychedelics, it is still very unknown, and there's still that taboo of psychedelics being dangerous. And, you know, the kind of the residual effect of what we saw happen in the 70s, late 70s and early 80s with the war on drugs.
They are Schedule One substances, so there's a lot of challenges just to kind of get our medicines in the clinic and up and running, with DEA scheduling and so that I think is more of the challenge and less outside of my functional activities. But I think the message is ultimately the same. One thing, obviously, is this is still uncharted territory. So we're dealing with regulatory agencies, both here in the US, and Canada, in Europe and in the UK. And this, these types of trials have never been done before. And so we're all trying to work to put together safe and robust protocols for these trials. And doing it as quickly as possible. And sometimes that can be a challenge, as well it’s just the time in which it takes to, to get these, these trials and these protocols put together, but the good thing is, we've seen a lot of support from all of the regulatory agencies that we've talked to. And so that's a good indication of I think that acceptance that we will see and continue to see, with psychedelics as we start to move many other trials down down the drug development pathway.
Fasken
That's great. And so I feel that there's a few things I've taken away from this is a lot of education, you're gonna have to do a lot of education, a lot of that upfront education. You mentioned earlier, like, you feel as though in some of the more traditional biotech, like, investors were sometimes even more of an expert than, then you were, but it sounds like in this world, like you need to be the expert, like, you really need to be the advocate and the expert, so that you can go and educate everybody. There,I mean, in your space, in particular, there's definitely a lot of focus on both retail and institutional, but maybe a little bit more retail than you would see in some other spaces. And I feel like that's probably true of a lot of emerging markets where the institutions are just a bit more risk averse, right, we're gonna wait and wait and see.
Gibson
Yeah, I think certainly right now, more so than anything, too. I mean, we've had some we've had some downward markets in the last two years. And typically, when that happens, biotech healthcare kind of feels that the most because of, I think, the long development process and the risk associated with that. So that's, so that's no surprise. I think it's kind of like we're hit doubly, because we are within healthcare, and we're in this new psychedelic emerging market. So, you know, I think we've, we've certainly felt it. But one thing that we try to remind our audiences of, is that execution wise, we've done incredibly well.
One thing I, I know, that I think was a huge win for the company is just moving our lead molecule from the bench into a phase one 2A in less than 18 months, which is pretty unheard of, in this space. So you know, I think that there's an opportunity to educate, I think that there is also an opportunity to to really innovate. And that's what we particularly are trying to do, but but certainly it's it's a learning every day,
Fasken
for sure. And so we're almost up on time here. I have one last question for and this is something kind of similar question. When I asked everybody who comes on the podcast, what would one piece of advice be that you would give to another IRO? Who is maybe entering a company, or currently in a company that is in an emerging market?
Gibson
Yeah, I mean, you have to be ready to put your school hat on, that's for sure. You need to be as educated as possible, because you are the person that both internally and externally, people are going to turn to for answers. That's certainly one thing that I found coming from, from a large cap biotech, where everything's pretty much streamlined into an emerging early stage company is that everyone is trying to find the focus and try to find the path and build the model. And so you have to be kind of ready to wear a lot of different hats, both internally and externally. And you have to be creative. I often get this might be my age showing. But social media isn't a very comfortable platform for me. And I've had to kind of relearn how to utilize social media as another way to communicate with my audiences. And those are my internal and my external audiences. And so you have to kind of step outside of that traditional IR learning and understanding that has gotten you this far and, and really try to listen to your audiences and what they need from you.
Fasken
That's great. I love that. It's such an awesome story. And I do love your approach to sort of being innovative and not just doing things the way they've always been done. So thanks so much for sharing the story and the tips. And I appreciate the time.
Gibson
Yeah, thank you so much, Mark. I appreciate it. Thank you
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